I Was Predestined to Write This
Furthering the discussion begun over at The Pfitz Pfactor ...
Jacob, Thanks for the insightful comments. You've added nicely to the discussion and I've linked to this posting from my own.
Excellent - my thanks to Pfitz for raising some very good questions, and keeping things interesting over at his blog.
What about explaining the verses that specifically say that God predestined us to be His children, etc.?
Well, interesting that this should come up, because I was just noticing that Scripture never speaks of individuals being predestined. Interesting, no? Whenever predestination is mentioned, it is in the context of God choosing a collective body of people.
For example, in the Ephesians passages, the whole purpose of the predestination that St. Paul speaks of is so "that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two," that is, bringing together the collective body of Jews into union with the collective body of Gentiles.
In Romans, St. Paul speaks of how there is - among the Jews - "a remnant, chosen by grace." (Rom. 11:5) Again, it is a body that is chosen, not an individual per se.
Again, in Romans 9, St. Paul writes, "And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call, she was told, 'The elder will serve the younger.'" (Rom. 9:10-12)
But is St. Paul talking about two individuals here? No, because when you go back and read the passage he quoted, you find this: "And the LORD said to her, 'Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples, born of you, shall be divided; the one shall be stronger than the other, the elder shall serve the younger.'" (Gen. 25:23)
So even here, when St. Paul is explicitly talking about "God's purpose of election," it is a collective body of people that is predestined, not necessarily individuals.
This is not to say that God doesn't choose certain people to have salvation - the question, really, is what role His choice plays in the whole thing, and on what basis He makes that choice. Does His choice include His foreknowledge of what our response will be? I see no reason to deny that.
In Romans 8, St. Paul says that "those whom he foreknew he also predestined." But the Greek word proginosko, "foreknow," means just that: to know something before-hand. The same word is used in 2 Pet. 3:17: "You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability."
Again, it's a difficult question simply because God doesn't fore-know anything, in the sense that He knows it at one point in time, and then it happens at another point in time. There is no "time" in God. So in a very real sense, God is, even at this exact second, predestining souls to eternal life - even souls that are already in a relationship with Him.
Talk about a mind-bender.
Jacob, Thanks for the insightful comments. You've added nicely to the discussion and I've linked to this posting from my own.
Excellent - my thanks to Pfitz for raising some very good questions, and keeping things interesting over at his blog.
What about explaining the verses that specifically say that God predestined us to be His children, etc.?
Well, interesting that this should come up, because I was just noticing that Scripture never speaks of individuals being predestined. Interesting, no? Whenever predestination is mentioned, it is in the context of God choosing a collective body of people.
For example, in the Ephesians passages, the whole purpose of the predestination that St. Paul speaks of is so "that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two," that is, bringing together the collective body of Jews into union with the collective body of Gentiles.
In Romans, St. Paul speaks of how there is - among the Jews - "a remnant, chosen by grace." (Rom. 11:5) Again, it is a body that is chosen, not an individual per se.
Again, in Romans 9, St. Paul writes, "And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call, she was told, 'The elder will serve the younger.'" (Rom. 9:10-12)
But is St. Paul talking about two individuals here? No, because when you go back and read the passage he quoted, you find this: "And the LORD said to her, 'Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples, born of you, shall be divided; the one shall be stronger than the other, the elder shall serve the younger.'" (Gen. 25:23)
So even here, when St. Paul is explicitly talking about "God's purpose of election," it is a collective body of people that is predestined, not necessarily individuals.
This is not to say that God doesn't choose certain people to have salvation - the question, really, is what role His choice plays in the whole thing, and on what basis He makes that choice. Does His choice include His foreknowledge of what our response will be? I see no reason to deny that.
In Romans 8, St. Paul says that "those whom he foreknew he also predestined." But the Greek word proginosko, "foreknow," means just that: to know something before-hand. The same word is used in 2 Pet. 3:17: "You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability."
Again, it's a difficult question simply because God doesn't fore-know anything, in the sense that He knows it at one point in time, and then it happens at another point in time. There is no "time" in God. So in a very real sense, God is, even at this exact second, predestining souls to eternal life - even souls that are already in a relationship with Him.
Talk about a mind-bender.
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