Predestination
A few comments on a very difficult subject, raised by the Pfitz-meister over at The Pfitz Pfactor... his words will be in blue.
(Note: Predestination is an utter mystery, and will not be understood by the rational mind - everything I say after this point is just a good guess)
There is nothing that humans can do to gain God's salvation.
Not in the strict sense, no. Not in the sense that we can make Him "owe" us anything. But remember, He can obligate Himself, if He so chooses - and He has.
If my son goes out and washes my car without me asking, I don't owe him anything. He can't obligate me. But if I go to him and say "if you wash my car I'll give you $5," then I've obligated myself. If he does a good job, he'll get the $5, because I'm true to my word.
It's the same with God; He asks us to wash the car, and beyond that, He gives us the hose, brushes, soap, wax, etc., and in some cases, even gets us started by showing us how it's done (this is just a metaphorical way of saying He gives us plenty of grace to do what He asks). We will be judged and rewarded based on our performance, so in that sense we do "merit" our salvation; but keep in mind that we can only do that because God first freely chose to put Himself under that obligation. I didn't put Him in debt; He made a promise.
We cannot say "I came to God" or "I chose to follow God" or even "I made a decision for God" because it is NOT us that does the choosing.
That affirms the "grace" side of the coin; but if you don't also affirm the "human choice" side of the coin, you don't have a coin anymore.
We do choose whether or not to follow God. He offers the grace, He issues the invitation, He waits for us to respond. Like the Prodigal Son's loving Father, our Father waits on the doorstep and watches the horizon for any sign of our return; like the parable of the wedding, the King issues invitations to the banquet, but many turn down His offer; He tells us to ask, to seek, and to knock - but those are all action words that are performed by us. He stands at the feast (John 7:38ff) and cries out in a loud voice, "Come to me, anyone who is thirsty!" But He does tell us to "come."
That's always been the mystery to me. How God can predestine, and yet also leave it entirely up to Free Will. Those two things are opposites, and they don't go together. But somehow, in the World of God, they do go together. Remember, 100% Divine and 100% Human also don't go together in the normal world - you can only be 100% one thing. But in the World of God, those things go together.
There is just nothing in us that is good (that's the concept of Total Depravity) just by virtue of being alive and created by God.
Whoa now, let's not get too carried away. Sometimes in our efforts to be humble and self-abasing we go too far and end up bordering on insulting God. Man was created in both the imago Dei and the similitudino Dei - the "image" and "likeness" of God. The distinction (according to saints and theologians throughout history) is as follows:
1) The image of God is things like our intellect, our will, our emotion, etc. This image - along with the ability to choose freely - remains in tact after the Fall, although it is weakened by Original Sin
2) The likeness of God is the similarity of the soul to His perfection - i.e., total sanctity and holiness. This was not just weakened after the Fall, it was destroyed, and must be restored through the gracious action of God
You and I are made in the image of God - and that is something "good" in us, something that's there just by virtue of being created. It's not enough, certainly, and that's why we need the "likeness" restored - but we're not just rotting cesspools either. We're prodigal sons in need of a good bath (pun absolutely intended). Remember the story of Cornelius; he was just a pagan, but somehow he managed to honor God with his prayers and almsgivings, and God was pleased by those acts - in fact, God says, "Thy prayers and thy alms are ascended for a memorial in the sight of God." (Acts 10:4) Not bad for a rotten sinner, eh?
Anyway, like I said, we can border on insulting God at times; we're made in His image, which can never be wholly bad (just as a mirror will always reflect something of the actual object) - it isn't exactly a compliment to our Maker to say, "Oh, I am such a horrible product! I am worthless, there is nothing good in me at all!"
We are dead in sins until God CHOOSES to reach down and touch us and plant the seed of faith.
Again, let's not deny the other side of that coin. I grew up hearing pastors say "We're dead in our sins! DEAD! What can a dead man do? Nothing! We're entirely powerless to do anything, until Jesus comes and says, Lazarus, come forth." Stuff like that.
Two problems:
1) This logically takes us too far; a dead man can't respond to the call to "rise up" unless he is first filled with life - and indeed, this is why my pastors growing up claimed that Man cannot even repent or have faith unless he is first regenerated by God - that is just not Scriptural, and it makes a mockery of all those "Come unto me" passages from the mouth of Our Lord
2) It doesn't exactly work with the Scriptural imagery. St. Paul says we were "dead in ... offences and sins" (Eph. 2:1), I don't deny that, but elsewhere in Scripture we are shown a different metaphor: "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick; I came not to call the righteous, but sinners." (Mark 2:17) - in this poetic-parallel passage, the font colors show the construction: the "sick" are parallel to "sinners," and the "well" are parallel to the "righteous." So sin is spiritual death, but it's also spiritual sickness.
What is death? Technically speaking, death is a separation - it's the separation of body from soul. The Prodigal Son's father said that "this son of mine was dead, but is alive again," meaning that his son had been separated from him, but was now returned. Is. 59 makes this statement about sin: "your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God." (Is. 59:2)
And then, there's this odd passage from that same epistle of St. Paul to the Ephesians: "Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give you light." (Eph. 5:14) See how the words are reversed? The command is given to the "sleeper" to "arise from the dead," and then "Christ shall give you light." Strange.
The thing to remember, anyway, is that being "dead" in sin only means being separated from God. It doesn't mean you can't make morally good choices, and it doesn't mean you can't respond to His invitation. If a dead man - as the preachers said - cannot bring himself back to life or do anything good, then technically speaking also can't sin or choose to reject Christ. But what does Our Lord say? "If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children ..." (Luke 11:13). See? Evil, unregenerate, "dead" people, making morally right choices.
All of this is not to say that we can initiate salvation, or to deny that God first chooses us; I'm simply saying that His choice must be met with our own free choice, that His free grace must be met with our cooperation - this is not a passive reception on our part.
That is why the Historical Church has typically baptized infants.
I would say the early Church has baptized infants in order to free them from Original Sin - but perhaps we're saying the same thing.
So we are chosen by the foreknowledge and predestination of God.
But what is pre-destination? This is where I get hung up. God is outside of Time, so in His world, there is no such thing as "pre" or "post." Everything is "now" for God. The best way I've heard it explained it this: I'm sitting at the train crossing, watching each car go by one by one - I'm inside of time. God is way up in the sky above the train, and can see all the cars at once. It's all "now" to Him.
So if He chose me 2,000,000,000,000,000 years ago, He also chose me 1,999,999,999,999,999 years ago, and also 58 years from now, and also right at this moment. It's all "now." Which means that His perpetually-present-tense choosing of me will, at some point, intersect with my historical and time-bound choice of Him - thus, predestination and free will are both true.
If God foreknows, is this like fate? Does God CAUSE based on His foreknowledge?
A difficult proposition indeed. That would, logically, make God the cause of the Fall - heck, even the cause of Lucifer's rebellion. Ultimately, it would make Him the cause of Sin in general and in specific; every sin I commit today He not only foreknew, but caused. And then He's angry with me for doing that which He caused? Hmmm.
Does God predestine some to NOT be saved?
That would be the case, if we deny that Man's free choice is part of the equation. If God's choosing is all that is necessary for salvation (i.e, Man is completely passive), then He necessarily predestines souls to Hell by not choosing them, by refusing to give them the one thing they absolutely need in order to avoid Hell. And if this is true, if He predestines souls to Hell, then He did so before all Time, before those souls were ever created - which means He created some souls for no other purpose than to be damned. That sounds a lot more like the destruction-hungry M.O. of Lucifer, not God.
Is God still a God of covenants? (as opposed to dispensational theology)
Insofar as we are still under the New Covenant, I would say so. Has He ever operated outside of covenants, even once in Salvation History?
If God predestined us and called us to be part of His family (Romans 8:29-30), has He not also called, justified, and glorified? That verse does sound like all the verbs are past tense.
Ah, the "golden chain" of Rom. 8:29-30. Those whom He calls and predestines, so the logic goes, will infallibly come to justification and glorification. In this view, Salvation really is something entirely passive for us, entirely out of our hands - we're basically just pawns being moved about the Chessboard of Life.
But that undercuts everything Scripture says about Man's responsibility and free will; if God is just (and He is), then His judgments must be just as well; and for His judgments to be just, Man must have free will.
If I "predestined" my daughter to eat a banana (by giving her the banana and telling her to eat it), and then spanked her for eating it, would that be just? No, it would only be just if I told her not to eat it, and she, of her own free will, chose to disobey me. Then it would be her responsibility.
But if God predestines (to the point of causing) everything, including who will and won't be saved, and including the sins I commit, then He would not be just for judging us based on those things which He predestined. He would be a kind of tyrant, an omnipotent demon.
Extreme predestinarians who deny free will have themselves trapped in a logical inconsistency:
1) God predestines (causes) who will be saved, and He does so without reference to Man's future actions; that is, He doesn't look into the future, say, "Oh, I see that Jacob is going to choose me, so I therefore predestine Him"; rather, He predestines first, and then what He predestines comes to pass precisely because He decreed it - again, I stress, He does this without reference to my future actions, good or bad
2) God predestines (causes) who will go to Hell - but based on what? If it's 56,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 BC, Adam hasn't been created, Lucifer hasn't rebelled, the world hasn't been created ... and God's predestining who will go to Heaven and who will go to Hell, on what basis is He saying, "Ah, this Jacob fellow - he's bound for Hell!" Why? The answer inevitably comes back, "Because you're guilty of Adam's sin." Ah, but Adam's sin hasn't taken place yet. So God predestines souls to Heaven without reference to future actions, yet He predestines souls to Hell with full reference to a future action committed by an uncreated Adam?
How is that consistent?
(Note: Predestination is an utter mystery, and will not be understood by the rational mind - everything I say after this point is just a good guess)
There is nothing that humans can do to gain God's salvation.
Not in the strict sense, no. Not in the sense that we can make Him "owe" us anything. But remember, He can obligate Himself, if He so chooses - and He has.
If my son goes out and washes my car without me asking, I don't owe him anything. He can't obligate me. But if I go to him and say "if you wash my car I'll give you $5," then I've obligated myself. If he does a good job, he'll get the $5, because I'm true to my word.
It's the same with God; He asks us to wash the car, and beyond that, He gives us the hose, brushes, soap, wax, etc., and in some cases, even gets us started by showing us how it's done (this is just a metaphorical way of saying He gives us plenty of grace to do what He asks). We will be judged and rewarded based on our performance, so in that sense we do "merit" our salvation; but keep in mind that we can only do that because God first freely chose to put Himself under that obligation. I didn't put Him in debt; He made a promise.
We cannot say "I came to God" or "I chose to follow God" or even "I made a decision for God" because it is NOT us that does the choosing.
That affirms the "grace" side of the coin; but if you don't also affirm the "human choice" side of the coin, you don't have a coin anymore.
We do choose whether or not to follow God. He offers the grace, He issues the invitation, He waits for us to respond. Like the Prodigal Son's loving Father, our Father waits on the doorstep and watches the horizon for any sign of our return; like the parable of the wedding, the King issues invitations to the banquet, but many turn down His offer; He tells us to ask, to seek, and to knock - but those are all action words that are performed by us. He stands at the feast (John 7:38ff) and cries out in a loud voice, "Come to me, anyone who is thirsty!" But He does tell us to "come."
That's always been the mystery to me. How God can predestine, and yet also leave it entirely up to Free Will. Those two things are opposites, and they don't go together. But somehow, in the World of God, they do go together. Remember, 100% Divine and 100% Human also don't go together in the normal world - you can only be 100% one thing. But in the World of God, those things go together.
There is just nothing in us that is good (that's the concept of Total Depravity) just by virtue of being alive and created by God.
Whoa now, let's not get too carried away. Sometimes in our efforts to be humble and self-abasing we go too far and end up bordering on insulting God. Man was created in both the imago Dei and the similitudino Dei - the "image" and "likeness" of God. The distinction (according to saints and theologians throughout history) is as follows:
1) The image of God is things like our intellect, our will, our emotion, etc. This image - along with the ability to choose freely - remains in tact after the Fall, although it is weakened by Original Sin
2) The likeness of God is the similarity of the soul to His perfection - i.e., total sanctity and holiness. This was not just weakened after the Fall, it was destroyed, and must be restored through the gracious action of God
You and I are made in the image of God - and that is something "good" in us, something that's there just by virtue of being created. It's not enough, certainly, and that's why we need the "likeness" restored - but we're not just rotting cesspools either. We're prodigal sons in need of a good bath (pun absolutely intended). Remember the story of Cornelius; he was just a pagan, but somehow he managed to honor God with his prayers and almsgivings, and God was pleased by those acts - in fact, God says, "Thy prayers and thy alms are ascended for a memorial in the sight of God." (Acts 10:4) Not bad for a rotten sinner, eh?
Anyway, like I said, we can border on insulting God at times; we're made in His image, which can never be wholly bad (just as a mirror will always reflect something of the actual object) - it isn't exactly a compliment to our Maker to say, "Oh, I am such a horrible product! I am worthless, there is nothing good in me at all!"
We are dead in sins until God CHOOSES to reach down and touch us and plant the seed of faith.
Again, let's not deny the other side of that coin. I grew up hearing pastors say "We're dead in our sins! DEAD! What can a dead man do? Nothing! We're entirely powerless to do anything, until Jesus comes and says, Lazarus, come forth." Stuff like that.
Two problems:
1) This logically takes us too far; a dead man can't respond to the call to "rise up" unless he is first filled with life - and indeed, this is why my pastors growing up claimed that Man cannot even repent or have faith unless he is first regenerated by God - that is just not Scriptural, and it makes a mockery of all those "Come unto me" passages from the mouth of Our Lord
2) It doesn't exactly work with the Scriptural imagery. St. Paul says we were "dead in ... offences and sins" (Eph. 2:1), I don't deny that, but elsewhere in Scripture we are shown a different metaphor: "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick; I came not to call the righteous, but sinners." (Mark 2:17) - in this poetic-parallel passage, the font colors show the construction: the "sick" are parallel to "sinners," and the "well" are parallel to the "righteous." So sin is spiritual death, but it's also spiritual sickness.
What is death? Technically speaking, death is a separation - it's the separation of body from soul. The Prodigal Son's father said that "this son of mine was dead, but is alive again," meaning that his son had been separated from him, but was now returned. Is. 59 makes this statement about sin: "your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God." (Is. 59:2)
And then, there's this odd passage from that same epistle of St. Paul to the Ephesians: "Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give you light." (Eph. 5:14) See how the words are reversed? The command is given to the "sleeper" to "arise from the dead," and then "Christ shall give you light." Strange.
The thing to remember, anyway, is that being "dead" in sin only means being separated from God. It doesn't mean you can't make morally good choices, and it doesn't mean you can't respond to His invitation. If a dead man - as the preachers said - cannot bring himself back to life or do anything good, then technically speaking also can't sin or choose to reject Christ. But what does Our Lord say? "If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children ..." (Luke 11:13). See? Evil, unregenerate, "dead" people, making morally right choices.
All of this is not to say that we can initiate salvation, or to deny that God first chooses us; I'm simply saying that His choice must be met with our own free choice, that His free grace must be met with our cooperation - this is not a passive reception on our part.
That is why the Historical Church has typically baptized infants.
I would say the early Church has baptized infants in order to free them from Original Sin - but perhaps we're saying the same thing.
So we are chosen by the foreknowledge and predestination of God.
But what is pre-destination? This is where I get hung up. God is outside of Time, so in His world, there is no such thing as "pre" or "post." Everything is "now" for God. The best way I've heard it explained it this: I'm sitting at the train crossing, watching each car go by one by one - I'm inside of time. God is way up in the sky above the train, and can see all the cars at once. It's all "now" to Him.
So if He chose me 2,000,000,000,000,000 years ago, He also chose me 1,999,999,999,999,999 years ago, and also 58 years from now, and also right at this moment. It's all "now." Which means that His perpetually-present-tense choosing of me will, at some point, intersect with my historical and time-bound choice of Him - thus, predestination and free will are both true.
If God foreknows, is this like fate? Does God CAUSE based on His foreknowledge?
A difficult proposition indeed. That would, logically, make God the cause of the Fall - heck, even the cause of Lucifer's rebellion. Ultimately, it would make Him the cause of Sin in general and in specific; every sin I commit today He not only foreknew, but caused. And then He's angry with me for doing that which He caused? Hmmm.
Does God predestine some to NOT be saved?
That would be the case, if we deny that Man's free choice is part of the equation. If God's choosing is all that is necessary for salvation (i.e, Man is completely passive), then He necessarily predestines souls to Hell by not choosing them, by refusing to give them the one thing they absolutely need in order to avoid Hell. And if this is true, if He predestines souls to Hell, then He did so before all Time, before those souls were ever created - which means He created some souls for no other purpose than to be damned. That sounds a lot more like the destruction-hungry M.O. of Lucifer, not God.
Is God still a God of covenants? (as opposed to dispensational theology)
Insofar as we are still under the New Covenant, I would say so. Has He ever operated outside of covenants, even once in Salvation History?
If God predestined us and called us to be part of His family (Romans 8:29-30), has He not also called, justified, and glorified? That verse does sound like all the verbs are past tense.
Ah, the "golden chain" of Rom. 8:29-30. Those whom He calls and predestines, so the logic goes, will infallibly come to justification and glorification. In this view, Salvation really is something entirely passive for us, entirely out of our hands - we're basically just pawns being moved about the Chessboard of Life.
But that undercuts everything Scripture says about Man's responsibility and free will; if God is just (and He is), then His judgments must be just as well; and for His judgments to be just, Man must have free will.
If I "predestined" my daughter to eat a banana (by giving her the banana and telling her to eat it), and then spanked her for eating it, would that be just? No, it would only be just if I told her not to eat it, and she, of her own free will, chose to disobey me. Then it would be her responsibility.
But if God predestines (to the point of causing) everything, including who will and won't be saved, and including the sins I commit, then He would not be just for judging us based on those things which He predestined. He would be a kind of tyrant, an omnipotent demon.
Extreme predestinarians who deny free will have themselves trapped in a logical inconsistency:
1) God predestines (causes) who will be saved, and He does so without reference to Man's future actions; that is, He doesn't look into the future, say, "Oh, I see that Jacob is going to choose me, so I therefore predestine Him"; rather, He predestines first, and then what He predestines comes to pass precisely because He decreed it - again, I stress, He does this without reference to my future actions, good or bad
2) God predestines (causes) who will go to Hell - but based on what? If it's 56,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 BC, Adam hasn't been created, Lucifer hasn't rebelled, the world hasn't been created ... and God's predestining who will go to Heaven and who will go to Hell, on what basis is He saying, "Ah, this Jacob fellow - he's bound for Hell!" Why? The answer inevitably comes back, "Because you're guilty of Adam's sin." Ah, but Adam's sin hasn't taken place yet. So God predestines souls to Heaven without reference to future actions, yet He predestines souls to Hell with full reference to a future action committed by an uncreated Adam?
How is that consistent?
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